Monday, September 7, 2009

Katie Hates Calvinism

Kellie (aka Katie) writes:

"Brian,why would an impartial loving awesome God restrain grace from someone who had no choice but to NOT be saved because that's the only choice He's given him/her even though God sets OUR moral compass and even we would find such a notion appalling given NO ONE even asked to be born?!"

Before I actually answer the question let me make two points.

1: It is a very dangerous thing to stand in judgment of God as Katie does in this question. God is not in need of our counsel and He does not conform His actions to our wills. Standing in judgment of God is strictly forbidden as the verses to come will demonstrate.

2: Our first calling as Christians is not to understand why God does everything that He does. It is instead to submit our will to what He says whether we understand it or not, never doubting that whatever God chooses to do is always the right thing.

With that said the answer to the actual question is found in Romans Chapter 9 and requires no commentary if one is to accept what God says in these passages at face value:

"10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—"


  1. Hi Brian.I may address this again in a blog.But briefly I will say that I am not trying to make up my own God..I am revealing the one I find in scripture..Fact is,when you take a few texts (similar,again,to the trinity and hellfire doctrines) and make the ENTIRE bible CONFORM to fit the is wise indeed to make sure your interpretation of the few in the glaring minority isn't flawed,given the fact that God is merciful,loving and impartial.Scripture is actually crystal clear.!The Calvinist God is responsible for everything rebellious creatures who misused and abused free will actually are!That is what is a dangerous teaching.Scripture does everything it can to provide one with evidence that God allows us to choose life or death,to choose whether to draw close to him or not.Were all his pleas to the Jews pretend time?That's just ONE example.Take care Brian.

  2. Oh and your mention of no commentary needed..I wish you not only would use that with the bible in relation to your views on who Christ is but also seek to understand that when you have to twist so many scriptures it's ridiculous to make them conform to your calvinist worldview due to misinterpreting a few texts ..the bible essentially loses it's greater revelations in the process.You did not get these beliefs without assistance and manmade commentary attempting to make SO many succint texts conform to the the MISUSE of a few.I can almost be certain of that!All I can do is encourage you to earnestly evaluate oppoing interpretations that actually FIT God's personality and the REST of scripture.

  3. Kellie, if you would just tell me how you really feel :')

    How about this:

    "the Word was God"

    No commentary needed...

  4. Brian, I appreciate your posting Romans 9 with no commentary. It is amazing to me when non-Calvinists try to "exegete" that passage. I would very much like to see Kellie walk through Romans 9 and show how it supports anything other than Calvinistic soteriology.

  5. haha my posts again..I said I won't take a few texts with varying interpretive possibilities(like John 1:1) and try to make the entire bible fit.Instead I take the entire bible and make the few texts fit.Thought I'd made that clear ;)..that goes for Mike too..I would like to see you two address the gazillion scriptures that state something very clearly in oppostion to calvinism and then cease with the commentary and believe it for what it is!Could you do that and remain a calvinist?nope.YOu'd have to write your own bible..for instance

    "Draw close to God and he will draw close to you" will instead say "God will make you draw close to him and then you just will because you have no choice in the matter"

    Suddenly God sounds like a tyrant.

    Then "You have two CHOICES life or death.Choose life." would become "You don't have a choice at all."

    How about the numerous texts like this free of commentary?

    Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD.

  6. Katie how about you do this. You give me the top three scriptures you believe defeat Calvinism and I will respond to them and in return you harmonize what I quoted to you with your beliefs... sound fair?

    And just as a matter of full disclosure I do not really call myself a "Calvinist." I have never actually even read anything by Calvin. I know the basic 5 points, however my high view of the sovereignty of God comes from my reading of the scriptures and my personal wrestling with the issue of Gods will and mans will.

  7. God chose to create the heavens and the earth,
    God chose to create us, God chose Noah, God chose to flood the earth, God chose Abraham, God chose his people, God chose Moses to deliver them, God chose the prophets, God chose Mary, God chose Himself to be nailed to the cross for my sins. God will choose the time when He comes back to make all things new.

    Why wrestle with the idea that those who are to be saved are chosen by God.

    Thanks for the post Brian.


  8. I enjoy reading your conversation with micheygirl66...on this and her site. I fought ardently with myself for a long time before I abandoned my "dispensationalist / left behind" theology for reformed theology. Keep up the good work, brother.

  9. I'm a little puzzeled by your comment Brian that said that "it is a dangerous thing to stand in judgement of God as Katie does in this question."

    If I understand Calvinist beliefs properly, (and maybe I don't) Katie is either one of the elect or she isn't. If it is the later, then why is it more dangerous for her? Isn't she already assigned to hell according to the Calvinist beliefs? Really the only way it could be more "dangerous" as you state, is if the calvinist point of view is indeed not true. While Romans 9 might be used to support the Calvinist belief system, if one really implements the "Sola Scriptura" concept, then one is obliged to accept the entire body of "Scriptura" there are so many scriptures that support the belief that Salvation was a free gift given to all men and that recieving this gift through faith leads to eternal life. The calvinist view is not supported by the Bible as a whole. It is in my oppinion a doctrine of Demons because it distorts the very nature of God as revealed in his word. The New Testament contains many passages that are warnings to those who are Christian to not be lead away from the faith. Yet according to Calvinist beleifs it is not possible for the saved to become lost again. It would be interesting to see some of those who hold to the calvinist view who are "apologist" to come forward on you-tube and instead of focusing all of their attention on one specific Cult, to start addressing what they really believe and not try to hide their calvinist beliefs. Is it possible that they are really trying to get some to abandon one false teaching and accept another in it's place?

  10. Hey Anonymous, (if that's your REAL name.... LOL)

    Today is a bit busy for me and I want to respond to all your points but at the moment I have time for only one.

    You said "Really the only way it could be more "dangerous" as you state"

    I am not sure I said it was "more" dangerous than anything else.... I only stated that it is "a" (one among many) dangerous thing to do. I don't think that bible disagrees with this statement, nor would a Calvinist or non Calvinist. Rejection of God in any form is always dangerous as one day He will call us to account for every thought, word and deed.

  11. Whether Katie questions God or doesn't question him, she is in the same boat if she's not one of the elect. Right? (according to calvinism that is)Your right the Bible doesn't disagree that it's a dangerous thing to question God. But the doctrine of Calvinism says it doesn't mater what one says or does, if he's (she's) not one of the elect and chosen before the creation of the world, he or she is going to hell. Do I have this right?

  12. Don't lose sight of the big picture here my friend.... people go to hell because they have sinned against a Holy and perfect God. It is as simple as that. We all deserve Hell.

    It is interesting how men will fight for their right to choose, their freedom of choice... yet when we say "God chooses" somehow he is a tyrant or a sadist.

    I do believe that men do "choose," and apart from the Grace of God they choose evil and sin because they have at the very core of their being, a sinful nature that knows nothing else.

  13. """"It would be interesting to see some of those who hold to the calvinist view who are "apologist" to come forward on you-tube and instead of focusing all of their attention on one specific Cult, to start addressing what they really believe and not try to hide their calvinist beliefs.""""

    1: There are many Calvinist apologist on youtube who defend the Calvinist position. A simple search would would reveal that.

    2: I can only speak for myself, but at this time on youtube I focus mainly on the Jws for a number of reasons which I feel no need to explain. I plan to do some videos on some other topics and some other faiths in due time, but for the moment my videos on the Jws has produced more correspondences than I can handle.

    3: None of my videos or my efforts are geared towards "converting" anyone to Calvinism, my only aim and hope is to draw people to the Savior as their only hope in repentance and faith. Calvinism has no power to save, only the gospel of Jesus Christ can save.

    4: Can you provide any evidence that I am "hiding" anything I believe?

  14. I believe I do have a sight of the "big picture" and that is that God gave Man free will to accept him or reject him. The original couple in the Garden of Eden chose to reject him. They were not forced to do so. Calvinist would have us believe that it was predestined for them to choose evil. Making God the originator of evil. It just can't be that way. The real Gospel is distorted by Calvinist teaching, and I believe that all Calvinist will attempt to hide what they really believe because they know that it caries a stigma with it that's undesirable. They attempt to hide the ugliness of the teaching by putting emphasis on "Gods Sovreignty" which to them means God controls everything and man controls nothing. If man controls nothing, how can he be held accountable for wrong? If he was forced by predestination to do evil how can he be responsible for it? The responsibility would fall back on the party that forces him to do it. However if he has a choice to do right or wrong. He can be held responsible. The real gospel as I see it, is that there is a way out of the mess that started in Eden and that is by means of Christ death on the cross. If what Calvinism teaches is true, the Cross of Christ was un-necessary and all Evil that exist in the world is the Work of God. This is what makes it a teaching that originates with Satan himself. His attempt in Eden was to malign the image of the Creator and false teachings today such as Calvinism is an extention of that goal. That's my opinion and really all I have to say on the issue.

  15. Anonymous,

    I think you are battling a Caricature of Calvinism and not honestly dealing with what I have written or what I believe. Perhaps a little more study on the issue from both sides will help you out.

    I find it interesting hat you misrepresented my words and when I pointed it out to you you never acknowledged your error, you continue to make claims about Calvinist hiding their beliefs with no objective evidence, and you don't honestly interact with my responses.

    I have no interest in debating a misrepresentation of my motives, character or beliefs.

  16. Excuse me, but didn't you misrepesent Katies character by sugesting that she was dangerously questioning God? When in actuality she was asking a legetimet question which you didn't answer in your own words.

    Don't dish out criticism of others if you are unwilling to take it yourself. To do so is not acting with Christian responsibility.

  17. Anonymous,

    I did not misrepresent or attack Katie's Character and I think she would agree with me. On a personal level I like Kellie allot, our only disagreement is what the bible teaches. She is passionate about her position and I am about mine as we should be. She calls it the way she sees it as do I. I merely stated a biblical fact that we are not to stand in judgment of God. That is indisputable.

    And as far as my answer, scripture is far superior than anything that I have to say. Please do not reject the word of God in favor of the word of man.

    I am fully prepared to accept criticism, but not from those who are unwilling to defend there critical comments. You want to say that Calvinist hide their Calvinism... fine... provide some evidence. Otherwise it is just gossip and slander. Is that Christian?

  18. Maybe I'm wrong here, if so please correct me. On all the videos I've watched on you youtube channel, I have't seen you mention your calvinist beliefs. That is the basis for my "critical comment" If you have openly acknowledged Calvinism in one of you videos please tell me which one and I will appoligize. If you have not made it known in your videos, am I wrong for saying you are hiding your real beliefs?

  19. Anonymous,

    Much could be said in reply but let me leave you with this:

    1: In my videos the only term that I ever remember using regarding myself is "Christian" because that is what I feel I am, it is the label that I am comfortable with and that is what I am calling people to. (not the label but Jesus)

    2: As I have already stated I do not call myself a "Calvinist." So I would not do that in a video. I have much in common with Calvinist but I do not attend a "reformed" congregation and I do not, nor have I ever studied Calvin. I attend a blended congregation were some are Calvinist and some are Arminian. However all are equally my brothers and sisters. I see no reason to debate or discuss the issue with Jws who do not need Calvinism.... they need milk... they need Jesus.

    3: There are many biblical perspectives that I have yet to speak about.... however this does not mean that I am hiding them.... such as end times views etc... all it means is that I have not gotten to it yet or feel that there are issues that are more important.
    However, It is likely that I will discuss my "sovereignty" views an my blog in more detail very soon, and my blog and youtube pages are linked.

    4: My "favorites" section on my youtube page is VERY public and you can tell allot about me by the videos I favorite there, nothing is hidden.

    I am not sure why you feel that I must make every belief that I have known in my videos or I am hiding something... I know nothing about you... not even your name nor anything about what you believe and I am not accusing you of hiding anything.

    Do I believe that God is absolutely Sovereign... Absolutely. I am in no way ashamed of that.

    God Bless

  20. Thank you for you in depth explanation.

    I hope you will realize that my purpose is not to find fault. But to point out and sift out what is the real truth. I'm afraid many walk away from one form of deception straight into another. Please consider spending more time in your videos pointing people to Christ and not just away from a false religion. Leaving falsehood is only one step. The steps taken therafter can have everlasting consequences. Please accept my appologies if I offended you, as it wasn't my intention. I just believe that Calvinism as it is being taught by some of the modern preachers may possibly be a cult of itself. A very dangerous one, because it blends itself so well with mainstream Christianity.

  21. Anonymous,

    Thanks for the kind response. I agree leaving false religion is only the first step and we need to make sure were not just creating atheist. Thanks for the reminder.